American Drug Policy

HatePirate · Post by **HatePirate** » March 23, 2005, 3:41 am

w00t w00t...it's time for a rant

I've discussed it on a few other boards and I thought I'd start a topic up here. What do you think of the drug policies here in Missouri and the US? In my opinion, the "war on drugs" is a joke and a waste taxpayers' money. Just thinking about marijuana laws makes me sad. Cultivation of cannabis (growing weed) is a felony punishable by up to 7 years in prison and a $5,000 fine. And that's just for a single small plant. "Land of the free" and you can get thrown in jail for 7 years for growing a plant... On top of that, who pays for your meals and well being for the 7 years of your imprisonment? US taxpayers. In case you didn't notice, most of this rant involves marijauna prohibition.

First we must ask ourselves, why is pot bad for you? Why is it illegal? Why take years or decades of a person's life away for possesing this plant? Hmmm...for starters, marijauna is bad for your lungs if you smoke it (as is tobacco). However marijuana can also harmlessly be injested by making a tea using the leaves or cooking it in a food. Marijuana inhibits your fine motor skills, but not nearly as bad as being shit-faced drunk. Marijauna affects your ability to make desicions, though one could still point out alcohol makes a person much more irrational. Can you overdose on marijauna? According to the surgeon general, noone ever has. So thousands of people die of lung cancer caused by smoking and alcohol poisioning, but noone has every toked themselves to death. Yet the government insists that marijuana is still more dangerous than cigarettes and alcohol.

Now we ask ourselves, what benefit do we gain from legalizing pot? What good could it do for society? For starters there's the thousands of people with chronic pain. Fibromyalgia, lupus, arthritis, headaches, tendonitis, all can be helped with marijuana. Marijuana also clears your bronchioles better than any other substance. Plus, marijuana generates a general feeling of euphoric happiness that alot of people would surely enjoy at the end of a stressful day. Side effects of all this? Other than small damage caused by smoking (which varies depending on the method in which it is smoked), there aren't any significant changes. Some claim there is decrease in sperm count/testosterone in males. But then again, no permanent damage is done.

So I guess what I'm really asking is why is everyone so hard against marijuana and marijuana users? What are your opinions of it all? If cigarettes and alcohol are legal, why not weed? You get the just of the discussion (hopefully).

HatePirate · Post by **HatePirate** » March 23, 2005, 3:46 am

Here is a kick-ass link detailing exactly how marijuana came to be outlawed in the US. Just thought I'd throw in a little something to back my original post up.[/url]

tiffybird24 · Post by **tiffybird24** » March 23, 2005, 8:39 am

you know that chocolate has a similar chemical in it that generates that general feeling of euphoric happiness. Maybe they should outlaw chocolate b/c it makes you feel good.

Post by **Paco103** » March 23, 2005, 10:01 am

I can definitely understand some drugs being outlawed. Some make people violent, some cause permanent damages, and various other things associated with many. i do however agree that if cigarettes and alcohol are perfectly okay, then why not pot? I've never tried it, or had any desire, but I've never wanted a cigarrette, and have no desire to drink either. I also find the laws on alcohol strange. You can smoke an addicting, cigarette that causes serious damage to your lungs when you're 18, but you can't drink a non-addictive (for most people anyway), non-long-term-damage causing alcohol that actually has GOOD effects in moderation until you're 21. You're welcome to come grab a rifle, hop in a tank, and blow people away / die for Uncle Sam at 18 though. Go figure.

They also relate drugs to crime. I'll agree that some drugs could cause problems. Some drugs make people psycho. But seriously - the only reason pot is linked to so much crime is because it IS the crime. As far as being the 'gateway drug' - if people didn't have to get into those circles of people to get it, they probably wouldn't get other drugs. If it was legal, they could tax it just like cigarettes, and people would probably gladly pay that over the prices they have to pay to get illegal merchandise. It would cause no more of a problem than cigarettes and alcohol, as you've already pointed out

rchif0 · Post by **rchif0** » March 23, 2005, 11:56 am

I have a very interesting view on all of this. And I haven't met anyone willing to accept it. I'm also sort of a socialist, so that makes a difference as well. But here we go.

People are going to do certain drugs whether it's legal or illegal. If they want to, they'll find a way. Right now, 50% of the criminals in the criminal justice system are in there because of drug-related crimes. That includes the prison and court system. We all know that the criminal justice system as it is is WAY overworked. Eliminating drugs as a crime would reduce that load by 50%, a big difference. So I figured, legalize all drugs. Have the government undertake regulating said drugs. Every drug, not just marijuana. Leave marijuana as a home drug, people can do it at home, but are still held accountable for being under the influence and whatnot (just like alcohol). The other drugs, leave at government regulated facilities. If someone wants to do heroin, they can, but they have to do it under supervision, i.e. have some sort of heroin bar or recreation facility or something. Same goes with the other stuff. That way, if something goes wrong, there will be help. And the drugs will be pure, since it's government regulated and not imported via some Mexican's asshole. Both of these will make said drugs safer. Also, to insure that they aren't overused and/or abused, there are quotas. Someone can only do so many grams per week and whatnot. If someone doesn't want to participate in drugs, they don't have to sign up for the program. But your records are kept electronically so that they know how much you can use that week and whatnot. Personally, I'd keep it anonymous. Nameless, with numbers or ID cards or something. Dr. Carlie (CAS/Criminology) suggests keeping track of who does what so that rehab can be offered and whatnot, but I figure if it's regulated then there won't be the danger of huge addictions. Plus it'd be taxed = more money.

I know my idea is sort of extreme, and I know it won't ever happen in our lifetimes, but that's my look on it.

solid_dave · Post by **solid_dave** » March 24, 2005, 8:57 pm

Pot is the only drug that harms the *unborn* child, it damages DNA in unfertilized sperm and eggs. There's a link between pot and birth defects, and also kids that are born of parents that smoke have learning deficiencies not at birth, but in the teenage years. Yes, this is all legit.

In addition,

as far as outlawing drugs, it's not because of people that can use it in moderations, it's for dumbasses that don't understand that the hot stove is hot.

You outlaw something because you don't trust parents to take a big enough stake in a kids life to teach them that drugs can KILL you. Have you ever seen a 6 year old kid that has a meth habit, what about a 4 year old Coke Fiend?

There's a reason, they kill children, and no, some parents don't have the ability to monitor their kid. If they are young, and the see it's illegal, the chances are they won't want to try it till they're teenagers trying to "fight the man".

Has anyone ever been to a country that has legalized drugs? It's a mess, regardless of what "High Times" magazine says, there's rampent problems with child addictions.. and subsequent deaths.

In an ideal society we could have legalized drugs, no doubt... in an Ideal world, Communism works too.

And by the way, I've had a few friends that were so burnt up they can't even put together a sentence... and yes, they smoked JUST pot, and a shitload of it.

Post by **Paco103** » March 24, 2005, 9:45 pm

The only problem with that is that if you outlaw anything that idiots can do to hurt themselves, knives, matches, lights (other than cold flourescents), adhesives, white out, highlighters, markers, paint . . . well that causes a lot of problems for the rest of the world as well. I don't think it should be illegal for me to have an iron because some idiot in the past tried to iron his clothes while he was still wearing them. I don't think it should be illegal for me to own a toaster because some idiot in the past tried making breakfast in his bath and fried himself.

I'm in no way trying to say that drugs are good - or condone their usage. I'm also happy about the Springfield smoking ban because I don't like smoke, but I think it's a bad law that shouldn't exist as long as smoking is legal. In my opinion, if I own a store in Springfield, and I choose to allow smoking in it, that is my business. I own (or lease) the land, it's my business, and I agree that the non smoker has the right to clean air. . . but the business owner also has the right to allow people to smoke if that's how he chooses to run his business or that's where he makes his money. The non smoker has every right to not go to that store, and to go to one that *voluntarily* bans smoking in their own store.

HatePirate · Post by **HatePirate** » March 24, 2005, 11:46 pm

solid_dave wrote:Pot is the only drug that harms the *unborn* child, it damages DNA in unfertilized sperm and eggs. There's a link between pot and birth defects, and also kids that are born of parents that smoke have learning deficiencies not at birth, but in the teenage years. Yes, this is all legit.

Drinking while pregnant can cause several kinds of birth defects. Ever hear of "fetal alcohol syndrome"? Oh, found this before I finished typing this post.

"While experts generally recommend against any drug use during pregnancy, marijuana has little evidence implicating it in fetal harm, unlike alcohol, cocaine or tobacco. Epidemiological studies have found no evident link between prenatal use of marijuana and birth defects in humans. A recent study by Dr. Susan Astley at the University of Washington refuted an earlier work suggesting that cannabis might cause fetal alcohol syndrome.

Another study of Jamaican women who had smoked pot throughout pregnancy found that their babies registered higher on developmental scores at the age of 30 days, while experiencing no significant effects on birthweight or length."

In addition,

as far as outlawing drugs, it's not because of people that can use it in moderations, it's for dumbasses that don't understand that the hot stove is hot.

Everyone some people don't know how to eat in moderation. Obesity is one of the biggest causes of health problems and death in the use. Why not let the government regulate what we eat (using the logic you're presented)?

You outlaw something because you don't trust parents to take a big enough stake in a kids life to teach them that drugs can KILL you. Have you ever seen a 6 year old kid that has a meth habit, what about a 4 year old Coke Fiend?

There's a reason, they kill children, and no, some parents don't have the ability to monitor their kid. If they are young, and the see it's illegal, the chances are they won't want to try it till they're teenagers trying to "fight the man".

According to the surgeon general, noone has ever ODed on marijuana. The only way to "die from marijuana" would be to do something like drive while high, which I don't think should be legal anyway.

Has anyone ever been to a country that has legalized drugs? It's a mess, regardless of what "High Times" magazine says, there's rampent problems with child addictions.. and subsequent deaths.

Umm...the Netherlands is one of the few countries with a very lenient policy on drugs. You can buy pot in coffee shops there. Oh but wait! They have a lower percentage of marijuana users than the US does. Half the percantage. And a considerably lower homicide percentage. Lower herione usage. Yeah, here's some more data backing up the "rampant drug problems": http://www.drugwarfacts.org/thenethe.htm

In an ideal society we could have legalized drugs, no doubt... in an Ideal world, Communism works too.

I'm afraid there is no such thing as an "ideal society" nor an "ideal world".

And by the way, I've had a few friends that were so burnt up they can't even put together a sentence...and yes, they smoked JUST pot, and a shitload of it.

"Many critics still cite the notorious monkey studies of Dr. Robert G. Heath, which purported to find brain damage in three monkeys that had been heavily dosed with cannabis. This work was never replicated and has since been discredited by a pair of better controlled, much larger monkey studies, one by Dr. William Slikker of the National Center for Toxicological Research and the other by Charles Rebert and Gordon Pryor of SRI International. Neither found any evidence of physical alteration in the brains of monkeys exposed to daily doses of pot for up to a year. Human studies of heavy users in Jamaica and Costa Rica found no evidence of abnormalities in brain physiology. Even though there is no evidence that pot causes permanent brain damage, users should be aware that persistent deficits in short-term memory have been noted in chronic, heavy marijuana smokers after 6 to 12 weeks of abstinence. It is worth noting that other drugs, including alcohol, are known to cause brain damage."

I dub thee officially pwned.

HatePirate · Post by **HatePirate** » March 24, 2005, 11:51 pm

Some people don't know how to eat in moderation. Obesity is one of the biggest causes of health problems and death in the US.

*fucked up grammar and spelling

Shouldv'e previewed and read it through before I posted.

kevin_100 · Post by **kevin_100** » March 25, 2005, 2:34 am

I didn't see this posted yet so I thought I would add it. Since we are in the bible-belt and to bring up the religious sides of this, "Didn't God put marijuana on this earth?" And if you say Satan is the one that put marijuana on Earth, then you are saying that Satan can make life, which if you are religious goes against your belief because according to religion, God is the only one that can make life, that is how I understood it when I took religion courses. So God did put marijuana here. So why are we illegalizing something that the almighty God put on this Earth. I just thought I would say something religious because it seems to convince people more than scientific facts.

Has anyone heard the parody song "What if God Smoked Cannibus". It is a parody to "What if God Was One of Us". It is a pretty cool song. I think it is a better written and better performed song than the original.

HatePirate · Post by **HatePirate** » March 25, 2005, 3:13 am

Nah, can't pursuade people here of anything. They simply won't listen. Too many lies have been told. For instance, the AARP did a survey on seniors regarding marijuana. Like 70% said they supported marijuana for medical use and around 55% said they'd buy pot for themselves or a family member. Just take a look at http://www.grandma-eats-cannabis.com. They were originally planning on publishing the results, but decided not too because the results supported the legalization of medical marijuana.

What I think would kick ass is if they passed a similar bill in Springfield that was passed in Columbia, lightening the penalties for possession. Right now the senate and governor (Matt Blunt, hehehe) are trying to ban sports tournaments in Columbia high schools. If Springfield were to do the same thing, it might get a message across to the state Congress. Or they'll just be relentless stubborn asses and ticket everyone as much as they can until the bill is repealed.

rchif0 · Post by **rchif0** » March 25, 2005, 6:00 pm

Hatepirate, anyone can quote anything and try to prove their point. What're your personal experiences? Your quote doesn't disprove the fact that burnt out potheads exist. And that potheads are annoying as all fucking hell. Your quotes also don't point out the abusive behavior of Americans in general. Legalization of drugs wouldn't work in America because the people don't know when to stop, the side-effects of a highly capitalistic society. The quality of the people here is WAY too low to ever legalize marijuana successfully. The entire country would become worthless burn-outs.

HatePirate · Post by **HatePirate** » March 26, 2005, 12:45 am

Dammit, rchif0, you got me there. Like the legal drinking age in most European countries is 18, but they don't get shit-faced drunk all the time like people here do. We lack discipline.

tiffybird24 · Post by **tiffybird24** » March 26, 2005, 3:36 am

Here's the final word on nutrition and health.
It's a relief to know the truth after all those conflicting medical
studies.

1. The Japanese eat very little fat and suffer fewer heart
attacks than Americans.

2. The Mexicans eat a lot of fat and suffer fewer heart attacks
than Americans.

3. The Chinese! ! drink very little red wine and suffer fewer
heart attacks than Americans.

4. The Italians drink excessive amounts of red wine and suffer
fewer heart attacks than Americans.

5. The Germans drink a lot of beers and eat lots of sausages and
fats and suffer fewer heart attacks than Americans.

CONCLUSION:
Eat and drink what you like.
Speaking English is apparently what kills you.

I posted this in the humor spot but it just seemed like the perfect oportunity to bring it up again. It obviously doesn't matter what we legalize and what we don't. We are all going to die sonner simply b/c we speak English. I think its really just that America is full of idiots and we need to quit making laws to keep them alive. The sooner we let the stupid people kill themselves off the sooner our society fills with inteligent people who don't need stupid laws.

rchif0 · Post by **rchif0** » March 26, 2005, 11:35 am

It has a lot to do with that Americans like to pretend their lives are hard and they get all stressed out and whatnot. Like all the college students "OMFG STRESSED HOMEWORK AND TESTS OHNOZ."

Post by **Paco103** » March 26, 2005, 4:28 pm

tiffybird24 wrote:The sooner we let the stupid people kill themselves off the sooner our society fills with inteligent people who don't need stupid laws.

Amen to that!!!!

solid_dave · Post by **solid_dave** » March 27, 2005, 10:28 pm

as far as research goes, I don't believe most if it, there's a good answer for every bad thing in the world, it just depends on who you ask. Sure, pot is good for pregnant women... does that even MAKE sense.... NO. Let's get real here. You don't outlaw something just to piss off a bunch of potheads, you do it to protect people from themselves. And yes, if you smoked as much pot as Jamacians did, I'm sure your body would need it just like any other thing, it called conditioning, they've smoked it for so long, the babies that live are conditioned to it I'm sure. If we all drank alcohol instead of water, at first, the birth rate would decline drastically, but then it would stablize. Societal differences.

as far as Obesity, you can over eat once and just have bad bloating and gas, you OD on many drugs, and you DIE. That's why you don't regulate eating. And plus, food is NECESSARY TO LIVE. Pot, obviously, is not.

As far as the Netherlands, I'm sure it's a paradise, you should go live there and report back to us, I hardly think you'd have much fun. There are bigger Negatives than the single Positive of their drug approaches.

And don't give me any shit about my burnt out friends, or try and tell me it must have been the water they were drinking.... they were burnouts, and had some type of major brain disfunction, and it wasn't from some energy plant up the road.

Anything that causes joy can't be good, drugs, chocolate, alcohol, cigarattes, corned beef hash (well maybe not corned beef hash), that's not anything that is in a book, you figure it out as you live.

What's my beef with pot, well here ya go.

It's illegal.

People that smoke it are usually in neglect of some part of their life.
(they are getting high when they should be, say, looking for a job, or feeding a baby, or something else that is constructive)

People that use mood altering drugs for escape (and not relief) are weak.
(deal with the real world, on your own, without crutches, or you let life run you, if you need it cause you are in immense pain, then that's different)

If all of us could get away from drugs in general, we would be a much stronger society. The good old ways of having fun like playing sports, computer games, sex... those are what nature intended, not putting your mind in a fog for a few hours and saying it's "enlightenment".

solid_dave · Post by **solid_dave** » March 27, 2005, 10:35 pm

oh, and before you rebuke the findings I started off with in the first place, they were over about 30 years and they were actual statisitical analysis, not study groups, or controled conditions, it was what ACTUALLY happened.

There's a huge difference between "studies" and "real life". You can find a sample of a control group (population) that will confirm any thing you want it to, if you try enough.

HatePirate · Post by **HatePirate** » March 28, 2005, 2:22 pm

Yeah, dave, you made alot of good points. But what about moderate users? There are quite a few people out there who aren't neglecting major responsibilities, who aren't "burn-outs", who don't need the drug as a crutch, but rather use it in moderation for personal enjoyment? Shouldn't they have that right? People can abuse anything that has the ability to make us feel better or have a good time. Some people drink too much, eat too much, play too many video games (yeah it's possible), or maybe they are workaholics. Just because there are people out there that abuse something or neglect more important responsibilities doesn't justify that action or substance be prohibited.

From your posts, I can tell (correct me if I'm wrong) that you're a guy who's just concerned with peoples' well-being. You've seen marijuana ruin peoples' lives and believe it is in their best interest that the drug not be mroe readily available to people than it already is. It's a point of veiw I used to feel myself and one that I respect. But I feel in America, we should have a right to choose how we wish to live our lives, and if people fuck their lives up, the majority shouldn't have to pay for the stupidity of a few. Burn outs, people with psychological dependencies on weed, people neglecting their jobs and families, that doesn't just "happen". It's a result of irresponsibility and stupidity on the user's part.

Post by **Paco103** » March 28, 2005, 7:01 pm

Dave's points are all perfectly valid, but the same things can be said of alcohol and numerous other things. How many people neglect families and responsibilities by hanging out at the bar, or just being drunk all the time? How many people neglect their families and responsibilities in search of sex in an affair? How many people neglect their families and responsibilities just because they are too immature to own up to them?

The end result is people need to own up to their own responsibilities, and quit passing the blame. It's not weed's fault that their life went down the drain, it's their own. They've got a lot of new restrictions on mild drugs like NyQuil/DayQuil. I can only buy 2 boxes at a time, and 2 boxes doesn't last long when you're sick. It doesn't stop people from making meth, those people will do whatever they have to in order to get the stuff. I can't buy a plain thermometer at Wal-mart anymore, because people use the mercury to make meth. Instead, I have to buy the digital ones. I have to get carded to buy pipe cleaners. . . . that I really don't understand. Some restriction I don't mind. I don't mind showing my ID to prove that I am of legal age to be responsible for what I choose to do with the product I buy. I do mind being told "You can't buy that because someone else used it to kill themselves"

Maybe I should get carded to buy rope? Jumper Cables? Heck - maybe we should be carded to buy bread, because I could choke on it. While we're at it, why not just hand our lives to Big Brother and ask before we go pee, because we might pee on ourselves and that is a biohazard. Let's not forget the form 192P that you'll have to fill out and get approval from in order to get a one time use urination permit. And don't worry, turn around time for those permits is only like 3 days. . .because they realize how important it is to be able to pee.

The point isn't that weed is good for you and should be opened up, the point is that it's not that bad, and CAN for some people have good effects, when used responsibly, and that the problems associated with it are associated with many other *legal* things. Another point is that in some places (growing more common) the government may be overstepping their bounds in control.

HatePirate · Post by **HatePirate** » March 28, 2005, 7:17 pm

Check this out. Looks like they might be laying the smack down on the Government soon. And the King County Bar Association is proposing a totally new drug policy resolution. Some people are speculating decriminalization/legalization could become a reality in the US in the near future based on the ruling of the court and how things go with the Bar Proposal.

solid_dave · Post by **solid_dave** » March 30, 2005, 12:21 am

The big problem with using things in "moderation" is a slippery slope for many people. At first it's social, every once in a while, then it becomes habitual, then it interferes with life, and the people in that person's life. The feeling of escape is a powerful tool, and though I've never smoked it, I've heard pot is a great way to do that. Under normal life stress, people can usually maintain "social" use of drugs like that, but when the hammer comes down, those kind of things fall by the wayside.

I don't have problems with people that use anything responsibly, but again, you don't frequently hear about Crack addicts that use the drug "responsibly".

There's alot of credence to the arguement that people can use drugs "socially" for entertainment. Alcohol is a good example, there are alcoholics, and there are social drinkers. But it gives an escape, and if someone needs the escape more often, the tendancy is for to be abused.

My problems with most drugs are the same as what I cited for Pot, I can't dismiss that, BUT, the key issue in my book is that people tend to look at pot as harmless, when that simply is NOT the truth.

solid_dave · Post by **solid_dave** » March 30, 2005, 12:33 am

and as far as protections go, if your not doing anything illegal, you shouldn't have to worry. And if anyone has that big of beef for getting carded for Psuedonephrine purchases, then just eat indian food, it'll clear your sinuses. Yes, the MINOR little things that we all have to do to get drugs are by far outweighed by the results gotten by the law. Look at Oklahoma they cut there Meth problem down by 2/3's state wide with the same legislation. Missouri is the #1 Meth producer in the state.

Seriously, I have yet to stand in a store and be distrought over someone doing there job. You get carded for Alcohol, you get carded for cigerettes.

Is it really that tough? Does anyone feel so damn upset that you actually have to show yer Zip Card at an SMS sporting event when your sporting an SMS shirt? If you are, then yer a douche. This falls under the same minor inconviniences that we discussed when Sam wanted an entire Campus Ban on smoking... just quit bitching and show your ID, or hold your breath for the 2 seconds it takes to get into the hall where you have class.

Oh, and by the way, if it's a drug, it will be regulated in the future, I'm sure, cause someone will find a way to get high on asprin. So if you don't like it, then move. I'd much rather put up with a small inconvienice at the register than be afraid that some screwed up drug head is driving down the road out of control.

Post by **Paco103** » March 30, 2005, 3:24 am

solid_dave wrote:Missouri is the #1 Meth producer in the state.

Wooo - go us!!!! We're number 1!!! Against. . . . wait, the #1 Meth producer in the state of. . . . Missouri?

Sorry, couldn't resist. And yeah, I've even read that the drug also has the name 417 because southern Missouri is the biggest source. I'm not saying we shouldn't do what we can to stop them. My only problem with the laws limiting me to buying 2 boxes of DayQuil is that the people that actually want to make drugs or whatever with it will go to as many stores as they need as many times as they need. It's an inconvenience on them too, and I'm sure that it does help cut down on the lazy producers at least, and that's better than nothing.

As far as getting carded to buy hazardous substances, that doesn't bother me at all. To buy pipe cleaners though? C'mon - kids make reindeer with them at Christmas. What are you going to do with them, use them like a fuzzy twist tie? Hold me I'm skeered!

And also, showing my zip card for a game doesn't bother me, because I get a discount, but what is with the bookstore? I have to show my ID if I'm paying in cash for a bag of M&M's? I don't think so!!! It's not like I get a special student rate or anything for showing my zip card. I also don't like the health center with their zip card policies. Yes, if I see a doctor it goes in my file, I understand this. But if I go in to buy an ice pack, or a box of band-aids, or condoms, or whatever else, why do they have to scan my zip card? I'm even okay with SHOWING them my zip card, I understand it's to be used by students and staff only, and they don't want just anybody in the world using the pharmacy. In my experience, things are pretty cheap in there, which is surprising compared to most university stores. But why does everything I buy on campus have to be linked to me?

I'm not going to be lobbying anytime in this life to make pot legal - but if I had my way Cigarrettes would be illegal too. At least pot makes you happy and isn't so much chemically addictive (people get addicted to the high, not the drug itself), cigarrettes don't do anything good or helpful.

Anyway - I know most of this post was slightly off topic - but since part of the issue is government control it is somewhat relevant.

Celtic Samurai · Post by **Celtic Samurai** » April 10, 2005, 2:06 pm

Why are you guys even debating this issue? We have the Guardian Angles to handle this kind of thing now.