A quick question about immortality:

[alien8ed]

So I was working today and got into a discussion with a pharmicist (I work in a pharmacy you see) about the mechanics of the soul and the origin of personality and things of that sort. I left work relativly unsatisfied and without an answer so I thought that I'd throw it out to you guys and get your thoughts.

My contention is that ones personality...ones emotions...the things that make one person unique from another are manifestations of the soul. That is...your mind and soul are one, your brain and your physical body are another. The pharmicists contention is that your personality and your emotions are simply by-products of the chemical processes of your brain. His evidence (and it is strong evidence) is that if you personality and emotions were not chemically based then it would be possible to alter those emotions through the use of other chemicals. Alcohol for example can make a chronically shy person quite outgoing, a depressed person can become happy, and so on and so forth. My problem with that is as follows. If you tend to subscribe to that argument that I feel that you are, in essence, saying that the soul is non-existant...or at least not unique. If you are a religious person then and believe in the afterlife then you have to ask yourself WHAT transcends to those other worlds. If your emotions and personality are purely chemical then they die with the death of your physical body. What then trancends to heaven (or where ever you believe it goes.) If these things are purely chemical then the souls in heaven are simply nameless, faceless, energetic entities...seperate and unalike the charicteristics that you possessed when you were living. The soul then, becomes this really unspectacular entity. It is, in essence, no different than the electricity that lights the light bulbs in your house...it's generic and no different than the electricity that lights lightbulbs in houses around the world.

I for one am not willing to accept the fact that the love I feel for someone is simply a chemical reaction in my brain. Similarly I am also unwilling to accept the fact that everything about me that is original dies with the death of my physical body, and simply can't believe that the part of me that trancends into heaven will be nameless, faceless, and non-unique. I however find that I have a hard time justifying these thoughts in light of the example given by the pharmicist.

So I'm curious...what do you think your soul is? How does it manifest it's self in your physical body? If emotions and personality are not purely chemical, then how can these things be so easily altered by chemical changes? When you die does something trancend to a different plain of existance, and if it does, what exactly is it? Is it unique? Does it bare any resemblence to the you that existed on Earth? If it does, how do you justify that?

Any thoughts on this subject would be fantastically appreciated.

=8=

[Paco103]

Well, since I'm a computer science major sitting here working on my computer (hard drives to be exact) - I can give you a new way to think about this. I'm going to try this through analogies - so hopefully it makes sense to more of you than just me.

Imagine your computer as your body.
Your CPU is the brain
Your northbridge is your central nervous system
Your power supply the heart (physically - it supplies everything needed)
Your network card is your heart (emotionally, it connects you to others)

If you don't understand all that - don't worry, it's not really important. This part is though:
The software and data (windows, office, your e-mails from loved ones, and your save games from Half Life 2) on the computer is your soul.

Now as the pharmacist said, everything is just a manipulation of chemicals in the brain. This is evident due to the effect of alcohol and other drugs on the pysche of the person in question. We agree we can't deny this right? We just refuse to accept it at JUST that.

Well, in your computer, everything is just a manipulation of electrical impulses. This is evident by the effect of power surges and power failures. When you overclock a system, you are increasing the amount and speed of the electical impulses. This can be like speed, and a heart attack. Too much speed, and your body is over-worked and you die (or at least pass out). Heart attacks shut you down for a while, but if taken care of quickly, you can be saved.

Now, for the sake of simplicity, we'll say that the hard drive is soul, rather than just the data on it. This is just so that we have a physical thing to think of. It also works because it is a small part that people never think of, but without it your system is nothing. It's just a box with blinking lights, similar to a body without a soul (from the religious standpoint). It's still fully functional, and can do what it was built to do, but it has nothing to do, no purpose in life.

Now lets say that someone comes in with a baseball bat and beats the crap out of your computer. Smashes the CPU, the motherboard, shorts the power supply, and removes your video card to sell on the black market. The computer is dead. It can no longer function. However, as a result of all the years of use, all the electrical impulses that have changed what it is throughout time (and if you have your own computer, you know nobody elses is quite like yours), the hard drive is not the same as it was when the computer was new.

The "soul" has changed as a result of the life of the body it was contained in. And, the "soul" is still what made that box of blinking lights and expensive junk do something that you cared about, such as play NFSU2, or remember all the friend and networks it was once a part of.

Now, if we take this hard drive, this "soul", and put it into a new computer (we'll assume the hardware is exactly the same for those of you that are probably going to complain about driver conflicts), guess what happens? Your old computer is back. The box of blinking lights is what did everything. It is what you thought about, and learned to love (such as that special person) - and it is what shaped the hard drive into what it is today - but the hard drive, the "soul" - is what made that box what it was.

Similar to replace hearts, limbs, and other major organs, you can rebuild the computer with whatever you want. However, once you lose the data on the hard drive, or in the case of humans the soul, no amount of technology will bring it back. That is something that man cannot replace.

(PS. Do not argue that "Engineers and experts can bring back that data - besides, humans made it all!". I'm aware of that, and in fact I do a lot of that - but for the sake of analogy - lets just assume we can't).

[alien8ed]

That certainly is interesting, and quite a good analogy. I think that I'll have think about it for a couple more days to completely wrap my mind around it. That being said, there are a couple of differences that are vital to the question. A hard drive is a physical entity...in your example someone beat the hell out of the computer...but it much the same way, someone could have beat the hell out of the hard drive...in essence the "soul" could be destroyed. I tend to...at least want to...think of the soul as a metaphysical entity. Some sort of energy that can not be destroyed...manipulated maybe...but never destroyed. The question that comes into mind then is this: Is the soul more like the hard drive or more like my traditional conception of the soul? It gets down to my root question. When you die...does your soul live on? Does the soul recquire something that your body gives it to live? Does it need nourishment? I like the idea that, like the hard drive, the soul is enfused with the essence of "you." It is indeed unique. I guess I question this the most. I am unwilling to believe that there is not an eternal soul. If for no other reason, it's the only thing that keeps me from crying at the end of everyday knowing that I am slipping closer and closer to death. What I also don't want to accept is that the "soul" is just some sort of generic bio-magnetic energy field. I want to believe that my soul is uniquely mine. That when I die and go to heaven, that I will still retain some of the properties that is "me." But although I want to believe it...I can't seem to find any justifiable proof....or even rational thought that backs this up. I am still stuck on the fact that our personalities seem to be heavily alterable by chemical processes and thus must be created by (at least partly) a chemical process. I can find no reasonable argument as to why my soul should be unique to anyone elses. Does our soul learn, soak up our experiences, become a shadow of ourselves. Or is it simply electricity...generic and non-unique. If it is unique...what support is there for this?

=8=

[alien8ed]

Another thought. If my emotions are simply by-products of chemical reactions how am I am to control or change them? How can I calm myself when angry...or even anger myself when calm? If I am inadvertently inducing a chemical reaction in my brain...then what part of me is doing that? Can my brain regulate itself...but only when I want it to. Certainly if I want to be mad I can stay mad, but if I want to calm down I can do that! How am I controlling the chemicals?

=8=

[Paco103]

The only point of using the hard drive is to simplify the process of moving it. Basically, that is the only way humans could move the data. The data on the hard drive would be the soul. It cannot be destroyed. It is a magnetic energy that will always exists. It can be manipulated the the electrical processes in the computer, (or you could take a huge magnet to it - but let's forget about that for now).

You cannot destroy the data on your hard drive with fire, with hammers, with molten lava, a death ray, or a laser in outer space. You can destroy the hard drive, you can melt the plattes in the drive so that we can no longer read it as humans - but - you the magnetic energy - the data - the soul - still exists.

The hard drive itself is just another box without blinking lights - again, the data is what makes it. Kinda like saying your soul is contained in your brain, and your brain is what makes you who you are. (Or heart if you prefer)

As far as proof of anything involving the soul - there is none, and probably never will be. That's why religion is faith instead of science - you just have to believe in what you feel, without having proof. Honestly I think that is part of the meaning of life that we can never know. Even prophets there's no way to tell if they're telling the truth or not. When Jesus was born, the only person on the planet with PROOF that he was the son of God was Mary. The ONLY proof she had was that she was a virgin - how else could she be pregnant? Joseph had faith in his wife. The jews had faith in Moses. None of these people had any proof, and never would have any.

Basically, you just have to believe in what you feel is right - because no scientific evidence could ever prove otherwise - and I think that's the way it is meant to be.

[alien8ed]

I absolutly 110% agree with you in the faith issue. It's just hard for me because of my inquisitve nature. I believe in God...but I need to know WHY I believe in God. I think the only way that you can have a close relationship with God is to distance yourself from him for a while, think about what you're doing, and then, if after all of your thinking, you find that you still believe in God then so be it. But your relationship is stronger because you're not believing in him beause your parents do...or because you always have...but because you've challenged yourself and come to believe in him on your own terms.

It would be easy for me to discount the pharmists claims as ludicris because I believe in the eternity and uniqueness of the soul...but I don't really grow from that. He has truly thrown a broom in my proverbial spokes. Now I find myself wondering what the soul actually is. I had assumed that my soul was what made me me...but if my personality is dictated by chemicals then that simply can't be true. So now I have a lot of thinking to do...contemplating the subject of the soul...immortality and so so forth. Only by running these theories through the ringer can I be satisfied believing what I believe. And through this thinking...this test if you will...I will become stronger. Unfortunatly the answer is still out. I've yet to be able to unite the two theories into one...which is why I post here. Listening to other people's opinions can only serve to strengthen your own.

Thank you for your wise and thoughtful posts.

=8=

[ogre]

Another thought. If my emotions are simply by-products of chemical reactions how am I am to control or change them? How can I calm myself when angry...or even anger myself when calm? If I am inadvertently inducing a chemical reaction in my brain...then what part of me is doing that? Can my brain regulate itself...but only when I want it to. Certainly if I want to be mad I can stay mad, but if I want to calm down I can do that! How am I controlling the chemicals?

=8=

Actually it would not be that confusing as soon as you are entered into biological world. Chemical reaction is quite a common thing for cells. We are probably the greatest cells organization on the planet. If you want to learn more about death and the universe, just take a look at " A brief history of time"

[dernhelm_003]

I think our souls and bodies work together and influence each other. The mind or spiritual energy of a person (assuming this is true) provides the stimulus to animate the body. However, the soul is connected to the body. We have real physical sensations. Our bodies are not machines. We could say that our bodies feel things without us (whatever us is). We know our bodies respond physically to the physical world. One may say that the absence of thought or mental control over certain physical sensations means our we/souls have no control over the body, but this assumption is a false assumption. We cannot control the sensation of feeling the wind, but that does not mean our souls have no control or influence or do not exist. My point is that the presence of chemicals in the brain (our physical world is made up of chemicals and electromagnetic enery) does not prove anything. We know we have sensations. We have discovered the chemicals that we can measure and observe them change. Proving existence or monitoring existence doesn't explain why we feel or how we do it exactly.

I know that souls exist and are the complete person. There are numerous accounts of near-death experiences or out-of-body experiences to prove that "life" or an existence or some sort exists outside our physical bodies. Why we have souls, I don't know. Assuming this world is it, makes life seem pretty pointless since no one can escape physical death.

You bring up a great point. We can manipulate our emotions and chose our thought patterns. The fact that drugs, chemicals, and other physical sensations can affect our physical brains and affect our emotions and feelings does not prove that we have no soul or an empty energy blip (in fact, the presence of mental conflict when under drug influence is more convincing that we do have another part because it is constantly contending with physical influences and attempting to chose a mental path). The physical observations present from spiritual influences (or whatever cause)obviously does not negate the existence of the spiritual force (cause). Having a physical explanation (observation really, we see a "what" not a "why" or "how") for the existence of chemical changes in the brain depending on how we feel (manipulated by physical drugs or not) does not prove that our existence is merely physical or that our souls are less. . . . us.

Our souls are connected to our bodies, but do not die as our bodies do. Ultimately, our souls always escape. Electromagnetic energy is readable on instruments when a person dies. In a way, does that make our souls physical? What cannot be seen does not mean it's not there. I don't think anyone would argue that a corpse of a family member does not look like the person. I was relieved when my aunt's face didn't really resemble her. She looked . . .well, waxy and "empty."

Using scientific proof and testimony (for what we cannot all know from experience), spiritual energy exists. Spiritual forms exist in each person. (maybe animals and plants too, who knows) Scientifically, we don't have a spirit personality meter. (how sad) We don't know how similar or different people are in soul form or if the electromagnetic burst is just a last heart beat. We do have testimony of people who have died and then returned to their bodies.

I think personality is used too broadly. I say all the time "I like his personality." I mean that he is charming or nice or sensitive--any number of positive behavior patterns. I mean I like the way he interacts with people or how he expresses himself or how I perceive his soul's character. I can become who I am to others through discipline or bad habit into any number of women from trashy to refined. I am not subject to my environment completely, however. We all watch Oprah's show, right? People change everthing from their hair to their thought patterns. Chemicals are involved in our brains, and doctors try to help people along in their positive thinking or mental health, but ultimately, we change how we think and what we are and we will be the only thing that can. Depression pills don't change people. Pills can change the "wiring" of synapses in the brain and the balance of chemicals, but ultimately, we feel the way we feel anyway. I think the drugs do more harm than good really. Our bodies adapt or adjust to chemicals regularly to assume normal functioning levels. For example, if I drink alcohol, I build up a resistance. If I drink coffee, I build up a tolerance. If I eat tons of sugar, I build up a dependence. The common denominator is that my body adjusts to the regular imposing of a chemical. It's when I stop consuming that chemical in the elevated amount that I experience withdrawal. People who drink a lot of coffee eventually need a certain amount to be at a "normal" alert level compared to someone who never drinks coffee. I think our feelings produce certain chemical ratios that are reflected and measurable. If someone wants to be depressed, a pill might rectify the "imbalance" for awhile; but if the thought patterns, depressed thinking, despair cycle (whatever) doesn't change from a person's own decision, nothing will be permanently changed/fixed. (uh, yuck, "fixed" sounds like people's feelings are problems to be solved.)

What makes us unique is how we respond to things. One could say we learn how to respond to things which is true; but we also invent, adapt, and deviate from what we learn. We have models but we also evaluate and chose. The different philosophies of different eras shows how much we think and adapt rather than use the same behavior patterns for all time.

Bio-feedback is a good example of how we as individuals affect our bodies chemistry. Through monitors and mental relaxation techniques, people can lower their blood pressure. Freewill and willpower aren't by-products. I think what we study most in science are simply the observable results rather than the causational forces. We can prove existence of something physically by physical results, but how the change came about is something else again.

I think the soul is what makes you you. Personality is what others see of your soul. Personality is presentation, social skills, interaction. It can also mean character. I could say he's compassionate, caring, bigoted, antisocial, narrow-minded, etc.; but these are observable traits or hasty assumptions and mere interpretations. What I see in someone does not define who they are. I could be very mistaken about someone's character or personality. I would not say that I am the sole authority on my own character either. Much of myself is a mystery to me, I certainly cannot expect anyone else to understand me fully when I myself do not! I think we all fantasize/create our ideal person--who we wish to be. Who we are is a combination of what we believe and what we do. The talk and the walk should never be confused. I know people who say who they are when they really mean this is what they believe. Many of us do not, sadly, live up to our ideals. Our ideals are just that--ideal, not reality or who we are uniquely. Everyone, ideally, would have the same ideal person or personality model--impeccable character (brave, etc.) and perfect understanding/interaction with others. I set my ideal within more specific details according to the understanding I possess, but you get the idea I hope.

I'm too long-winded, but I hope I got some ideas going.

[BeerMePRN]

(I work in a pharmacy you see)

rad. i work in a pharmacy, too. where do you work?

[Tzimisce]

Problem is that not every chemical in the brain effects every person the same way. this is why drugs is not considered an "exact science". They can only prescribe things that TEND to make you act you a certain way or have a certain reaction.