Mayor's Race

[sam313s]

Who all went out and voted, who did you vote for and why?

I voted for Schilling because of his opposition to coal power plants.

[HatePirate]

Coal power plants kickass. Using current filtration technology, 1 coal powerplant releases less toxins into the air annually than your average automobile. Stupid hippies...

[sam313s]

Wow, you've been extremely misinformed.
Either that or you're still one of those same die-hards who still believes that tobacco isn't bad for you. Either way, what you just said is completely false.

This is just from Springfield:
Emissions of criteria pollutants, CO2 and Mercury – 2000
Total
emitted

NOx - Annual (Tons) 5,528 6.438 0.57
NOx – May 1 to Sept. 30 (Tons) 2,681 6.19 0.55
Sulfur dioxide (SO2) (Tons) 7,456 8.68 0.76
Carbon Dioxide (CO2) (Tons) 1,972,295 2,297 201.47
Mercury (HG3) (Pounds) 67.322 0.0392 0.0034

I invite you to show me proof that my 1994 Prizm emits that much. Oh, and by the way, cars aren't good for you either.

Next time, try not to buy into corporate propoganda before you post, please. Some people actually believe this joke of a forum is helpful.

[the_red_chimp]

I forgot to cast an absentee ballot in my home county last weekend. Hope they can figure out what to do with all that spare manure the county has without my vote.

[HatePirate]

Reread my post. I said current filtration technology. Not technology used in the Springfield coal power plant (which I've been in). Lemme ask you something...if not coal than what? Solar? Wind? You build a dam, you destroy wildlife; you build a nuclear plant, you have toxic waste; you build a coal plant, you've got smog and ash. No matter what we do, we're gonna fuck the planet up. And some day we'll fuck it up so bad we'll die off, and the planet will slowly return to the way it was before our species fucked it up. It doesn't matter.

And you say I'm a victim of corporate propaganda? What about hippie bullshit propaganda? Like those infomercials where a grandfather is telling his grandkids about water. The kids are like, "What the fuck is water?" and the grandfather starts to explain. Then some stupid hippy message comes up warning us to stop polluting. Unfortunately, we will never run out of water (considering it covers over 70% of the earth's surface). And there's another hippy infomercial where these kids are in a museum and this kid is like, "What's that?" and the tour guide says, "It's a flower." Like all the pretty flowers are going to die off someday. Not. Gonna. Happen.

I hate hippies.

[Paco103]

That is a pretty good point there. If there was no water, we wouldn't be around to be telling our grandkids about it. If there were no flowers, there'd probably be a major shortage of plants of any type and we wouldn't have enough oxygen to survive. And mother nature can recover from anything we can throw at it - everything we use we pulled out of the ground anyway. I'll grant you that for the earth to rebuild itself we may have to die off first, but it will survive.

I just read a thing in the paper today (Michael Fox: Pet Doctor), and he tells a dog owner he should not allow his dog to kill copperheads as it disrupts the balance of nature. Honestly now, dogs hunt, it's what they do. Copperheads are poisonous, and if they're in the yard, then I say to the dog "Good boy" and give him a treat - because that's a poisonous snake in the yard where I spend time, and possibly have children that play.

He also tells pet owners to pick up their dogs crap to reduce parasitic and bacterial contamination of soil and streams. I'll agree that in a public place it's a nice thing to do out of courtesy, and in anything like an apartment or any place where there may be high concentrations then yes, clean up. But I live out on a farm, and if my dog craps in the pasture I'm not going to go track it down. Animals crap in nature, it's what they do. It's not destroying the ecosystem, it's part OF the ecosystem. It also says not to flush cat crap in the toilet because of ecosystem problems and causing disease to sea otters. Honestly now, it's cat crap, with all the things WE pour down the toilet and all of our bodily wastes, I don't think cat crap is the worlds problem.

Something to think about:
If a dog craps in the forrest, and nobody is there to pick it up, will a species go extinct?

[sam313s]

Reread my post. I said current filtration technology. Not technology used in the Springfield coal power plant (which I've been in). Lemme ask you something...if not coal than what? Solar? Wind? You build a dam, you destroy wildlife; you build a nuclear plant, you have toxic waste; you build a coal plant, you've got smog and ash. No matter what we do, we're gonna fuck the planet up. And some day we'll fuck it up so bad we'll die off, and the planet will slowly return to the way it was before our species fucked it up. It doesn't matter.

And you say I'm a victim of corporate propaganda? What about hippie bullshit propaganda? Like those infomercials where a grandfather is telling his grandkids about water. The kids are like, "What the fuck is water?" and the grandfather starts to explain. Then some stupid hippy message comes up warning us to stop polluting. Unfortunately, we will never run out of water (considering it covers over 70% of the earth's surface). And there's another hippy infomercial where these kids are in a museum and this kid is like, "What's that?" and the tour guide says, "It's a flower." Like all the pretty flowers are going to die off someday. Not. Gonna. Happen.

I hate hippies.

First of all, it's not called "filtration technology", where you got this term, I'm unsure. I've provided support for my side showing how bad coal is, provide support for your claim that this magic technology makes coal amazing.

Then you have to account for all the time and resources used to mine the coal, and the effects of the mining (which, by the way, uses huge trucks and machines, so I still seriously doubt your claim about being better than a car...which is still bad). Don't forget about the mountain top removal happening in West Virginia. Sounds like an unimportant topic till people are getting killed by the mudslides that follow.

Second, you said, "Coal power plants kick ass," and I was showing that what we have now is quite contrary to your claim.
And if Springfield were to build another coal power plant, it certainly wouldn't be better than our alternatives.

As for the alternatives, you're right, dams and nuclear aren't good (which, Carlson's beloved Energy Task Force supports Nuclear, by the way). But Springfield doesn't need more electricity. We already sell excess electricity to Fulton (over 160 miles away), and by using conservation methods by upgrading industrial processes/motors - we could reduce our energy consumption by 10% without building anything with a $500 million price tag on it. However, if we need to build power, wind is a perfectly feasible solution for Springfield.

This is a map of wind power at 100 meters (where utility wind would be located).

http://www.dnr.mo.gov/energy/renewables ... 6Aug03.pdf

Check out Greene County. Wind turbines only need 6-7 MPH to generate wind, and there's excess of 16-17 MPH winds. A 1MW turbine costs $1 Million, so we could build a 100MW wind farm for $100 million, verses a $500 million 350 MW coal plant. Then these turbines can be rennovated at a future time to incorporate the 4MW turbines, increasing our output to 400 MW.

Just a recap, we don't need extra electricity, but we're burning coal like no-body's business. Even if we did need more electricity, we could cut consumption, stop selling to fulton, and build wind.

As for the propoganda issue, allow me to use an analogy...One commercial has Smirnoff Ice, great tasting, fantastic beverage. They want you to buy their product by persuading you to their side (a form of propoganda). The next commercial is Mothers Against Drunk Driving (MADD), a non-governmental organization designed to fight the effects of drinking alcoholic beverages and driving (another form of propoganda). Now, why is it that we should prefer listening to a business - that doesn't have anything other than profits as the motive - over listening to a consumer advocacy group that has had personal tragedy's by that same company?

Same thing with coal. Coal folk want you to keep buying coal, because it's good for business. They brainwash people into believing that coal can be "clean" (which, it can't, even with the best scrubber technology, emissions still rate in the thousands of tons - albeit better than current plants, but much worse than wind, which has no emissions), jus so they can sell a product. Meanwhile, consumer advocacy groups tell expectant mothers to not eat fish, because of high levels of mercury from coal fired power plants. Kids can be born deformed, with mental disorders or could even not be born via miscarriage. You mean to tell me that my "propoganda" is just as bad as coal company's? Again, I fear you're a person that would side with the tobacco industry just because of some hippy doctors thinking cancer comes from smoking tar...

I'm sorry if I came off hostile earlier, the mayor election hasn't gone well for Springfield...

[sam313s]

I just read a thing in the paper today (Michael Fox: Pet Doctor), and he tells a dog owner he should not allow his dog to kill copperheads as it disrupts the balance of nature. Honestly now, dogs hunt, it's what they do. Copperheads are poisonous, and if they're in the yard, then I say to the dog "Good boy" and give him a treat - because that's a poisonous snake in the yard where I spend time, and possibly have children that play.

He also tells pet owners to pick up their dogs crap to reduce parasitic and bacterial contamination of soil and streams. I'll agree that in a public place it's a nice thing to do out of courtesy, and in anything like an apartment or any place where there may be high concentrations then yes, clean up. But I live out on a farm, and if my dog craps in the pasture I'm not going to go track it down. Animals crap in nature, it's what they do. It's not destroying the ecosystem, it's part OF the ecosystem. It also says not to flush cat crap in the toilet because of ecosystem problems and causing disease to sea otters. Honestly now, it's cat crap, with all the things WE pour down the toilet and all of our bodily wastes, I don't think cat crap is the worlds problem.

Something to think about:
If a dog craps in the forrest, and nobody is there to pick it up, will a species go extinct?

First, snakes are venemous, not poisonous. Poison is injested or comes into contact with skin. Venom is injected through a hyperdermic needle.

Second, it is against the law in Missouri to kill snakes. While it may be sound for your dog to kill snakes (legally), you cannot.

Third, snakes keep rodent populations down, and thus disease. The black plague was spread by rats, and rodents eat farmer's crops. A lot of farmers actually like snakes on their property because they protect against rodents and disease.

Fourth, as for kids, we have an obligation to teach them how to handle animals. You don't say, "Let's ban cars because kids could get hit by them." No. You say, "Aight, Johnny, don't run out in the street." Snakes don't bother humans unless humans bother them.

Fifth, you're right about the stuff we pour down the drains and whatnot. You said you live on a farm. Ever go fishing? How would you like it if the fish you were eating had extremely high human estrogen levels from all the stuff we put down the sink/toilet? It happens. I guess we men better get used to being off hormonally if we'd like to keep things "natural".

Sixth, I find it interesting how you go from pollution in a stream of one dog to the extinction of a species. Well, if everyone let their animals poop in the stream, I certainly wouldn't want to drink from it. Just because a species isn't threatened doesn't mean it's a good idea...Are humans threatened from drinking cat urine? No? Well, drink up, buddy!

Lastly, the main thing you keep saying is it's natural that dogs do these things. No it's not. I ask you to do a little history on dogs and find out where dogs in North America came from, if they were originally here without being introduced (i.e., invasive species), and if so, how they interacted with humans. I think you're in for a surprise. Not only that, but humans breed dogs for pleasure. There's nothing natural about humans raising cattle, chickens, horses or pigs. We have an overwhelming population of dogs because people want them. This overpopulation is what exasterbates pollution from the "natural" state of any farmed or bred animal (not just dogs).

But I'm glad you're reading the paper. Few people do.

[Paco103]

Venemous, Poisionous, both can kill you.

I'll agree we have more of these animals (at least density wise in the areas we do have them) than would probably occur naturally. Perhaps we should get rid of all these cattle because there's too many. Oh wait, now what do we eat? Most farmers do like snakes. They like black snakes, garden snakes, and those harmless kind. Cotton Mouth on the other hand are agressive, and look nearly identical to a harmless black snake. Copper Heads are not nearly so agressive, but still, I can contain a child to a yard until they're old enough to learn about cars - and no, I'm not going to be afraid to let them play there because there could be a snake. I'll even agree that, yes, even the Copper Heads provide good benefits, as usually rodents are a much bigger problem.

As far as dogs not being natural to this part of the world, what is really? Humans? No, we came from the Asian/African areas too. Maybe we should all pack up and move back home, since we're destroying the ecosystem here?

As far as the extremely high estrogen levels in the stream - I'm not overly worried. I'm sure there's enough testosterone going down the drains too that it all balances out in the end





BTW: Despite the debates and disagreements, it's good to have you here arguing for what YOU believe, and bringing a little activity to the forums.

[tiffybird24]

awe we are all going to die anyways so what does it matter. I would like to go along with Paco and say thank you for bringing some discusion in.

[sam313s]

I'll agree we have more of these animals (at least density wise in the areas we do have them) than would probably occur naturally. Perhaps we should get rid of all these cattle because there's too many. Oh wait, now what do we eat? Most farmers do like snakes. They like black snakes, garden snakes, and those harmless kind. Cotton Mouth on the other hand are agressive, and look nearly identical to a harmless black snake. Copper Heads are not nearly so agressive, but still, I can contain a child to a yard until they're old enough to learn about cars - and no, I'm not going to be afraid to let them play there because there could be a snake. I'll even agree that, yes, even the Copper Heads provide good benefits, as usually rodents are a much bigger problem.

As far as dogs not being natural to this part of the world, what is really? Humans? No, we came from the Asian/African areas too. Maybe we should all pack up and move back home, since we're destroying the ecosystem here?

As far as the extremely high estrogen levels in the stream - I'm not overly worried. I'm sure there's enough testosterone going down the drains too that it all balances out in the end

BTW: Despite the debates and disagreements, it's good to have you here arguing for what YOU believe, and bringing a little activity to the forums.

As for snakes killing you, there's not been a recorded death from a snake bite in Missouri, ever. You'll get sick, but probably won't die.

As for beef cattle being too plentiful, I believe this to be true. Factory farms cause a heck of a lot of pollution in Missouri streams, which causes harmful algae blooms and fish kills. Since Missouri gets about $2 billion from fishing annually, perhaps we should take care of our fisheries. That's why I don't eat meat unless I hunt or fish it my own. I think people eat meat too much because the factory farms makes it really cheap. But that's a whole other argument.

As for what is natural, I find this to be an interesting question. Humans are naturally curious, so us moving from Asia/Africa to here is pretty understandable. We're pretty nomadic too, so we follow food sources; and, since we eat everything, we fill pretty much any niche there is. So I believe the message here is "in moderation."

Aside from this all, keep in mind there's still a greater dialog about what I believe to be the most important issue of our generation: energy consumption. We've got to stop wasting our resources, and killing our people. There is no evidence saying that burning coal is good for human health (although, electricity is quite nice). There are alternative means, why don't we explore them?

[HatePirate]

Fusion!!!

I'm bored.

[solid_dave]

yeah, screw coal


Nuclear!

no, seriously.. I'd cast my vote for nuclear power, effcient and clean